T160 Sidestand lug angle

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This topic contains 22 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Duncan Cunningham 2 days, 6 hours ago.

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  • #7411

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Hi All

    I am restoring a 75 T160 and the sidestand lug was not on the bike when I bought it.  I didn’t really want this to be a trial and error installation so I was looking for the angle the lug sits at from factory.  Can anyone help with this please?

    Thanks in Advance

    Stuart

  • #7412

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Hi

    From searching the internet this may be a difficult one to answer.  Would it be possible for someone to post a picture of their bike on the side stand from either head on or from the rear?  I know the angle of the sidestand and can work out the lug angle from your picture.  Any help on this would be great.

    Rgds

    Stuart

  • #7413

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    Sorry pics are showing landscape, but I guess you can open and rotate them somehow.  If not, I can email the originals.

    IMG_3302IMG_3303IMG_3304

    With bike level on centre stand and side stand straight out there is a 130mm (5.125″) distance between the lowest point and the ground.

    IMG_3307

    Difficult to measure in situ, but I make it 130 degrees off vertical.  This last photo is with the bike level on its centre stand.

     

    Hope this helps, a bit at least.

     

    If you click on the flickr pic below it will go to all the pics.

    IMG_3303<script async src=”//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js” charset=”utf-8″></script>

  • #7414

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Thanks for the pictures Duncan.  These are very helpful.  I have the bike in bits and on a lift at the moment so I will try and setup the lug at 130 degrees.

    Thanks for the help.

    Stuart

  • #7500

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Hi

    I noticed in the workshop manual that there is an exact measurement for this of 11.5mm.

    sidestand_lug_wsm

    This is dependent on the sidestand lug length.  I bought the replacement from LP Williams.  Can anyone let me know the original lug length from the tube to the tip so I can match against the replacement.  This will allow me to get it exact.

    sidestand_lug

    Thanks so much for the help

    Stuart

  • #7501
    Ross Andrews
    Ross Andrews
    Participant

    Stuart, when I bought my T150V, the side stand lug was broken off. I used it like that for several years before deciding last winter to fix it. The weld was still in place, just the lug broken off and missing, the little pin for holding the spring was still intact and in good order. I bought a new lug, just as you did from LP Williams, I used that as a template to make another that I fashioned myself from a piece of EN3B (mild steel) flat bar. I visited my pal who also has a T150V and took the measurements from his bike. I cut and filed the new lug to fit where the old one had come off but made it 1/4″ wider than the original item as they had a tendency to bend. When ready, I fastened the new lug in position with tie wraps (the engine was already removed). I borrowed a T.I.G. welder from a work mate and tacked the new lug to the frame, I knew I would be in the right position because of the original weld on the frame. With the bike on its centre stand, I checked the dimensions by attaching the side stand and bolt (no spring). When I satisfied myself all was well, I tipped the bike on its side and fully welded the lug to the frame. When cool, I painted it black and fitted the stand & spring. Weeks later, when I re-fitted the engine, exhaust pipes etc., the stand was exactly 90 degrees to the frame, I wanted it a few degrees further forward, after half an hour filing the lug in just the right place, perfection was achieved! There is a small mark on the frame where the 5/16″ BSF bolt that screws into side stand touches the frame, when I saw mine lined up exactly, I knew I had got it right! The job is a bit of a faff but well worth the trouble, good luck,

    Ross

  • #7504

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Thanks Ross

    I wanted to get this in place before i send the frame off to get painted.  The dimensions given in the workshop manual look exact and what would be set on a jig so i wanted to use them.  It would be easier for me to take it to a welder with these dimensions and get the job done quickly and a good chance it will be right first time.  The only issue with that is the replacement lug needs to be the same as the factory.  That i don’t know.

    Cheers

    Stuart

  • #7505

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    Mine measures 32mm.  This would give an angle of 111 degrees off vertical, which looks too shallow to me.  I have been back and re-measured everything (using a mini spirit level and small instruments) and measured things as per your diagram (triangulating it) and it measures 120 degrees off vertical.  So my original 135 degrees was a bit loose.  We’re assuming here that the lug was a snug fit against the frame tube when welded.  If not, then this measurement may well have some tolerance.

    • #7509

      Duncan Billingham1
      Participant

      Stuart, please reread as I was editing it when you replied. I meant my original 130 degrees was a bit loose, sorry.  Hopefully it’s more useful now.

  • #7508

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Thanks Duncan

    This is great information that will hopefully let me get the lug on first time right.

    Thanks so much for the help

  • #7510

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    By the way, that 11.5 measurement in your diagram appears to be to the upper face of the lug.  Mine measures nearer 12.5 and it’s 22.5 to the bottom face of the lug.

  • #7511

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Thanks Duncan

    Just to confirm are you saying the 22.5mm is the top of the arch to the tip of the lug as shown?

    Cheers

    sidestand_lug

  • #7512

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    No, 32mm is from the top of the arch (inside face where it meets the frame tube) to the tip of the lug.

    In your side on diagram where it shows a vertical height of 1.15, my equivalent measurement is 12-12.5mm.  This measurement is to the upper face of the lug.  Because the lug is quite thick and 3 dimensional, there is also a measurement to the bottom face/edge of the lug, which is what mine measures as 22.5mm.  Sorry if I have confused things.

  • #7513

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Brillaint, Thanks

    The LP one is measuring at 39mm so I can now adjust accordingly.

    Great forum with great members.

    Cheers

  • #7514

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    OK, that’s a big difference, so I went back and measured again and again and again and again and . . . . (you get the picture) – I now make it repeatedly between 36.5 mm to 37.0 mm (NOT 32 mm).  I must have misread it the first time, or the stop on the ruler moved.

    That should be giving me an angle 110 degrees from vertical (Sin a = 12.5/36.5 = 20 degrees).  When I put a spirit level horizontal to where the lug fits I can then snug fit a 30 degree set square into the remaining gap, which makes it (visually measured) 120 degrees off vertical.  I’m a bit confused as to where this difference is coming from between the calculated angle and the visually measured angle.  Either my measuring is rubbish, or my maths has forsaken me, or my eyesight is up the creek.  Although my lug doesn’t look as if it was welded on exactly square anyway, so maybe this is where it’s coming from.

     

    Back to your original diagram, using 11.5 and 39, the angle would be 17 degrees off horizontal (107 off vertical).

     

    I’m beginning to wonder if I’m helping at all here.

     

    Cheers, Duncan

  • #7517

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    OK, this maybe a bit over the top but I thought it would be useful for those who would like to get the lug angle right first time according to the workshop manual.  The LP Williams lug is different in dimensions so you can’t use the factory measurements.  I’ve put together this diagram based on the data given in this thread of the original lug.  It’s not to scale but hopefully it makes sense.  The main thing was to get the original angle and then use that taking into account the increased thickness of the new lug.  I will confirm when I take it to get welded.

    Sidestand Lug

    Rgds

    Stuart

  • #7519

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    OK, then I’ve measured the wrong length for the 11.2. I thought your first diagram was a side on drawing but now I see it’s overhead.  In which case my measurement is 30mm.  So mine appears to have been welded at a very dirfferent angle to that shown in the manual.  Perhaps we need someone else to measure their frame lug set up.

  • #7520

    Stuart Morrison
    Participant

    Sorry Duncan, the diagram was misleading in that respect.  It is from a top down view.

    topdownview

    Also the units given are in inches so my diagram is now incorrect.  I’m not used to someone saying a decimal version of inches e.g. 1.15 inches!  this is approx 30mm.  I will redraw when I get time.

  • #7521

    Duncan Billingham1
    Participant

    Which will bring you back to an angle of 130 degrees off vertical.  So perhaps my first ‘by eye’ measurement wasn’t so far out after all.  30/37 =cos 40 degrees, therefore angle off vertical = 90+40.

  • #7538

    JOHN KYTE1
    Participant
  • #7571

    Duncan Cunningham
    Participant

    Stuart, I only just spotted this post as I am a new member.

    Have you resolved your side stand lug welding yet? I have two T160’s and have recently fitted LP Williams supplied lugs to both, so I know what you are going through… I also have a few pics which may help.

    Let me know where you are with the process and if you have still not fitted it, I will tell you everything I learnt.

    (Another!) Duncan

    • #7572

      Stuart Morrison
      Participant

      Thanks Duncan

      The run up to Christmas have left me with no time at the moment to go back to the bike.  Hopefully I will get a bit of time between Christmas and New Year and I will have another look at this.  Any help on the fitting is much appreciated as it will help me get the fitting right first time.

      • #7573

        Duncan Cunningham
        Participant

        I originally posted this on another forum, but hopefully it will help. I did not have the drawings that you now have, but I did have one original frame and lug (that had been slowly twisting from new) as a guide.

        ——————————————————————————————————

        Having just sorted out the side stand lugs on both my bikes I have been through a LOT of grief getting it all fixed. I won’t know 100% for sure that I’ve done it all correctly until after the rebuilds are finished and they’re leaning at the right angle, but this is what I learned. Working from bare frames, on my original bike owned from new, I firstly ground the whole bracket and wrap around bit off the frame tube and all looked good, ie it left a relatively round tube. On the second bike which had a badly repaired/welded lug, when I ground it off I found the frame tube was oval with a big dent in it where the lug had obviously crushed the tube when it collapsed at some point. Managed to get a welder friend to fill the dented bit and we made it a mostly round tube again. Bought a couple of new lugs from LP Williams (which are beefier than the originals) where the part to fit the frame tube were unfinished U’s with the lug at the bottom.
        Gotcha no1) The side stand spring lug on both new brackets was WAY too long, so they had to be cut off and the lugs drilled so the pin could be refitted to the correct length, otherwise it will foul the standard exhaust pipes. Then gotcha no2) The brackets as supplied did not fit the slightly distorted frame tubes so we had to heat each bracket up and reform them until they fitted their respective tubes nicely (If you have inclinations to be a Blacksmith then that will be a help!). Gotcha no3) then had to cut the new brackets so the U part fitted half way round the tube and had to make a another pair of U’s to make the back half of the brackets. Finally Gotcha no4) the brackets have to be welded in exactly the right spot as the tolerance between the lower crankcase clamp bolt head and the lug surrounding the crankcase bolt to the rear of the lowest one is very tight. Wear marks on the frame caused by side stand stop bolt are a clue, but I ended up settling on 40 degrees for the final angle (in the pre repair bent state it was 32) and my welder friend did a stunningly neat job once we had tacked, checked and double checked it all. The frames are off being painted at the moment but when they are back I’ll post a pic of the final result, happy to help with more detail if anyone wants it.
        I cannot see how you can do it properly though without a totally bare frame…

        ————————————————————————————————————

        I will add some photos when I get the chance and I now have the frames back from the painters so can show the final result. The biggest clue/help were the marks the original stop bolt had made on the frame, which gave a clue as to the original angle and forward/back position but I knew that the side stand was the exact original one.

        T160 stands are quite bent in order to tuck into the upswept lines of the original exhaust when retracted, so make sure you get an original one as there are a lot of straight ones listed on eBay etc claiming to be for a T160 when they are in fact for a T140.

        Finally, wherabouts are you? If you need any help and not too far away then let me know, the whole process was a bit daunting when I realised just what had to be done and how precise everything had to be.

        Photo attached shows a rough comparison of the slightly bent original bracket and the angle I was planning on achieving. Will post other photos showing the Heath Robinson set up I used to get the angle etc.

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